Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

Delhi, India
3 February 1983

Today we are going to understand the center of Agnya — Agnya Chakra which is placed on the crossing of the optic chiasma. The nerves that supply the eyes go backwards in the opposite direction and wherever they cross, this subtle center is situated. It has a continuous connection with the other center through the medulla oblongata. This center has got two petals. And this subtle center on one side acts through the eyes and at the back of the head where you have some protrusion. This is the physical side of this center is. Now the people who talk of the third eye, this is the third eye. So that we have two eyes with which we see and there’s a third eye, which is a subtler eye through which we can see.

If you see this eye, that means you are away from it. For example, if you can see your eyes, that means you are seeing your reflection, not the reality. If you see anything, that means you are looking at it. So those people who say they see an eye, for example people who take LSD and all such things, they start seeing another eye. They just see this eye and they think their third eye has opened. Actually you are very much away from the eye, that’s why you can see it. You go to a supraconcious level on the right side, and on the left side to the subconscious level you can see the eye. But in Sahaja Yoga you have to see through that eye, like a window, you can look at the window but if you see through the window, you can’t look at the window. So this illusion that people have that ‛we can see third eye and that’s why our Kundalini is awakened“, they are sadly mistaken.

This is a very narrow passage through which attention cannot pass normally. Is an impossible thing. Is a very narrow passage where the ego and superego fit onto each other and cross each other just like this. And there is no gap in between for the Kundalini to pass through. This superego and ego go back, go downward, and come to the Vishuddhi Chakra and circle round it and go in the same direction. So, you find that they come up to this place, they start from this place, go up to the Agnya Chakra and then they cross over. But here, they are in the same direction as they were. Here they cross over. So when you have a problem on the left hand side, you get the effects of that on the right hand side. But the right hand starts from here up to this side and the left hand starts, say, from here to here. But the left hand actually acts on the right hand side. So, if you have any problem on the left hand side …

So this third eye is to be penetrated through. Or, we have to enter into the third eye through Kundalini awakening. But, it is such a closed passage, it is the door to the limbic area which is the Kingdom of God — that anybody who tries to push their attention through this closed door, either goes to the left or to the right. And this is the beginning of the trouble of the people when they don’t understand that whatever is unknown is not God, is not Divine. So, when they move on the right side, they go to the supraconscious area and they start seeing hallucinations – actually, these are not hallucinations but actual things, because they exist on the right hand side. So they start seeing things of the right hand side. They may see colors and the formation of colors and they may see also people who are dead, who are being very egoistical. They can see gandharvas and kindharas because they go to the gandharva level, to the right side and start seeing those things in the unknown awareness of supraconsciousness, but that movement is very dangerous because if anybody catches you there, then you get an added personality sitting on your head. And you get possessed by ego and you become, on your own, and you actually become malignant.

Hitler is one of the examples of that. He learned this from the Tibetan Lamas, how to go to the supraconscious. And when he learnt it from them, he used it and made many people supraconcious, ego-oriented. You must have heard about the lama system, which was another big problem, they knew who is going… the future part, who is going to be the next lama, where you’ll find him, where you’ll get him. All the future things they knew and people thought this was Divine. To know future is not Divine. It’s an area which we should never go to because it’s an imbalance.

We are human beings, and we have to know the present, and not the future. Once you go through the present stage, then you reach a height from where you can see the past, the present and the future. Supposing on the Mother Earth, if you have a means of going higher and hang yourself there, then you can see whatever has passed through and you can also see what is going to come; and wherever you are, you are in the present. In the same way, when a person ascends in reality, in the present, he goes at this point in the super consciousness from where he sees his supraconscious right side, and also he can see his subconscious, but he has no interest. He wants to rise in the present. And this is what actually the Kundalini awakening is. So, all those people who say that Kundalini, in the awakening of the Kundalini, it is very difficult and it is harmful, are the people who have no right to awaken the Kundalini. So when they try to play tricks, actually the sympathetic nervous system goes into great agitation. And this sympathetic system on the left and right side starts extracting more energy from the central path, so much so that it gets exhausted and such a person becomes actually a mental wreck.

So many people who said that ‛we are raising your Kundalini by this method or that method“ wreck the life of the sadhakas. Ultimately they are left high and dry without achieving anything. Nobody knows what to achieve and what to receive. So they are misled. But logically one must understand that at least your health should be all right, mentally you should be better off. Your temperament has to improve, minimum of minimum. But, if you are losing all your money to the guru, you are losing all your health for these nonsensical experiences, and you have no control over yourself, then you must know that this is not in any way the reality. Reality is where you are in control. If you are in the control of something else then you are a lost case. For example some people start jumping. And they say, ‛Mother, I start jumping automatically.“

That’s a serious affair. That means you have no control over yourself. You are just jumping because somebody is making you jump. You are not jumping, that means your own chaitana, your own attention, your own awareness, is under the control of somebody else. You cannot control yourself. So all these experiences in which people think they are flying in the air or they are having, I don’t know what they call in English language, a extraterrestrial movement and people are going in the air and seeing things. All these are very dangerous things. Such a person may ultimately become a lunatic, absolutely, because he loses complete control over himself.

These are called as parapsychological experiments in America. Give it a big name. Parapsychology. Of course it is ‛para“ because it is beyond the psyche of a person. But, is very dangerous. You are not supposed to get into these muddles where the spirits capture you and you start behaving in a manner that you can’t explain. Once about I think five, six years back or maybe more, no about twelve years back, a group of Americans came to see Me. And they told Me that ‛You must teach us how to fly in the air.“

I said, ‛Why? Aren’t you flying?“

They said, ‛No, we want to have that space travel.“

I said, ‛Why?“

‛Because Americans [Shri Mataji may mean ‛Russians“] are doing experiments parapsychology and we want to do the same.“

I said, ‛They’ll all get possessed and they will finish off. Why do you want to they same thing as Russians are doing? If they come to Me I’ll tell them the same thing.“

So they said, ‛No, no, we must learn.“

I said, ‛If I tell you that you’ll become slaves of those spirits and then you cannot do anything of your own and you start shaking your body all the time.“

Despite that, they said, ‛Yes, we must do it.“

And when they told Me that because Russians are doing it, ‛we want to do it.“

I said, ‛Who sent you here?“ So they told Me a name of a gentleman who is a journalist in Bombay.

I said, ‛This fellow used to suffer from this trouble. Used to leave his body, go into another world, see this and see that, who suffered so much and he was losing complete control over himself and I cured him. So, does he think I can put back the disease in you? I cured him of this disease and why do you want to get into this disease?“

But they were quite sure that they wanted it. And I discovered later on they are having this parapsychology business in America, which is an extremely dangerous thing. So, this is the movement, not crossing the Agnya but moving, floating on the left or the right. Whether you go to the subconscious or the supraconscious, effects may be different, but is the same thing to Sahaja Yoga. The people who go to the subconscious area may start seeing Me also in different forms. Like the people who take LSD, they can’t see Me. They just see lights coming out of Me. And those who go to the subconscious area, they start seeing forms and things in such a manner that they think they have reached heavens. But they are seeing the past of evolution, past of everything. So this supraconscious business is very dangerous, no doubt, but also the subconscious is very dangerous, because all incurable diseases like cancer, mylitis, and all that, come from movement of the attention to the left side. So one should be very careful before going to any one of these tantrikas or to these people who are trying to control you or trying to tell you something about the future or the past. There is no need to know about the future or the past. What is the need? How does it help? Actually, if I start telling you how I came all the way from there and how I was held by the jam or anything, will you be interested? How do you get interested in your past glory or past life which was of no value at all today. But it is a human weakness that he wants to add to his personality something that is extremely artificial, non-existent and of no value. And then he says that, ‛I did this, I did this. I happened to do this. I never got anything.“

In India people normally go more to the left side with this Agnya because they, say, worship God. Now if they have to worship God, they have no connection with God. See now I had no connection here, I could not speak to you. So without connection to God they start worshipping God. Then they’ll sing all kinds of aartis, fasting, this, torturing their own lives, it’s left sided people, and singing the praise, all these things, going to the extreme twenty-four hours they are like that. So, somebody sucks them into the left side. If they will go on saying ‛Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama“ like that. They might say that ‛Valmiki was told to say“. But who told Him? Was Narada. Narada is an incarnation. Narada. You are not Narada. So how can you tell yourself, or anybody can tell you, ‛take this name“? Take any name. You cannot go to God. So where do you go? You go somewhere. There may be a servant called Rama. He might capture you. And people start behaving in such a funny manner that they look like mad, insipid people. Same thing about supraconscious. People who are very ambitious – they, too, can get into such a mad condition where they do not think of the collectivity, of the whole, but they just start thinking about themselves. And when such a situation comes in, it’s impossible to convince them that they are wrong, till they reach their Waterloo and finish off.

So this Agnya Chakra is a gate, is the door of Heaven. And everyone has to pass through it. Now on this chakra resides the great incarnation of our Lord, Jesus Christ. In our Indian Shastras, He is called as Mahavishnu, the Son of Radhaji. And His essences are made of eleven rudras, means eleven destroying powers but the governing essence, the main essence is that of Shri Ganesh, means innocence. So He is the embodiment of innocence. Innocence means complete purity. And His body was not made out of Mother Earth in the sense that He never had a body that was perishable, it’s Omkara. So when He died, He ascended. That’s a fact, He ascended and because He was a person made of Omkara. Now as He is the Son of Radhaji you can see the relationship between Him and the relationship between other deities very easily. About Mahavishnu it is written in the Devi Bhagavat. But who reads Devi Bhagavat? Nobody has time to read these books. Mostly what trash things they read. There you can’t find the explanation of all these incarnations who have come on this earth.

So, to understand Jesus Christ you must read the Devi Bhagavat. But if you say this to Christians, they would not like to listen to you. Because for them, Bible is the last word. How can it be? Because Christ’s life is depicted there only for four years and He must have reference in other books also. And we have to open our eyes to those books and see for ourselves what is the truth, because if you want to have an organized religion, you have to say that ‛this is the thing, there’s nothing else“, because if there’s anything else, then your organization falls apart. But is not true, because Christ has been described very clearly in Devi Bhagavat and we can prove it in the Kundalini. That, when the Kundalini rises and stops here, at the Agnya here, you have to say Lord’s Prayer, otherwise it won’t open. To awaken Jesus Christ, if you do not awaken Him it won’t open. You have to take His name otherwise it won’t open — proves that it was Christ who was holy. Or even if you take the name of Mahavishnu, it opens. So Mahavishnu and Jesus Christ are the same. So you must see the proof of it. And just because you want to believe that Christ is your own, and discard everybody as heathens, you are sadly mistaken. Absolutely you are sadly mistaken.

In every scripture, people have entered from the back door. Every scripture. I told you about Gita what wrong things they have written about the food. Which is scientifically not true, to say that tamogunas are the people who eat meat is not true because they eat protein and they have to be rajogunis, automatically. So how they have tried to change it just to suit their thing at that part. But in the beginning they could not, because they said, ‛Krishna said that ‘you kill these people. I’ve already killed them. Whom are you killing?’“ Just to bring this, you see, brahminic stamp, they did this.

In the Bible, the mistake came when this St. Paul, who never knew Christ, he had nothing to do with Christ — just entered into the Bible. I don’t know why he is there. He was not a realized soul. He was just a supraconscious Roman soldier, Roman, very bad soldier, who used to kill so many Christians. And suddenly there entered this Mister St. Paul into it, and he is accepted in the Bible all over the world. But you read him and you will know he is not a realized soul at all. He talks in a supraconscious way, he’s an organizing machine, and he’s good for nothing. Then he describes in the Acts, you see, which he has written – many people may not be knowing that Acts have been written by Mister Paul himself – and this Mister Paul tries to describe the disciples of Christ as supraconscious bhoots, absolutely like supraconscious people. And they behaved in such a funny manner that everybody started feeling that they are mad. Can you imagine Christ’s disciples behaving like that? But you have to gulp it down and devour everything if you are a Christian because it is in the Bible. And you start questioning, if you are a born realized person, ‛What is this nonsense? Who is this Mister Paul? From where does he come in?“ because he doesn’t talk like Christ.

So the time has come for all of us to understand that all religions are one. They are part and parcel of one life’s tree and that all incarnations are supporting each other, nourishing each other and caring for each other. There’s complete concord between them. There’s no way you will see they will oppose each other. Never. So this point is to be proved also. And that can be only proved if you know how to raise the Kundalini. If you are a realized soul and you if can raise the Kundalini, you’ll be amazed to see that all these deities are placed on various chakras and they are to be raised.

Now sometimes, you see, I’m blamed in India that I’m preaching about Christ so I’m spreading Christianity and if when I go to England they say that I’m preaching about Krishna so I’m spreading Hinduism. Now, if I have to tell them that Radhaji has created Christ and it you see Christ, His fingers are like this. Try to understand. Two fingers like this. One of Krishna and one of Vishnu. And he says, ‛The Father.“ And who is the Father of Christ there? Is Shri Vishnu, Shri Krishna. Because in Mahavishnu’s description, it is Shri Krishna, Himself, worshipped His Son and said, ‛You will be the support of the universe and whosoever will ever worship Me, the fruits of that will go to You.“ And He placed Him even higher than Himself but you can see that above the Vishuddhi Chakra starts Mahavishnu. And He’s the gate through which everybody has to pass. He actually blessed Him specially and He said, ‛You will be the support of the universe.“ See now, you have known that Shri Ganesha stays at Mooladhara. Mooladhara Chakra means the support of the moola, support of the roots. But Christ is placed at the support of the fruit. So the same thing evolves at that point, that you become aware of Christ only when your Agnya Chakra opens.

Now this Agnya Chakra can be opened when the Kundalini goes up and opens it out. But supposing if you are too much ego oriented, then you have turned it so tight, say the two ropes have turned it so tight that nothing can pass through. Or if you are too much of a superego and a frightened personality and dominated one, then also it is twisted so badly that Agnya Chakra cannot be opened. So what we have to do is to give a balance to the Agnya Chakra by removing left to the right or right to the left, according to the need is, which you will understand in the technique of Sahaja Yoga, after Realization, not before. Now when the balance is established, then the chakras you see, the Agnya Chakra becomes little also better off because there’s no twist on it. And then only, when the Kundalini rises, She can push through if you are a normal person, if you are not a ego and superego type, then there is no problem to raise your Kundalini through your Agnya.

But, say, in Delhi since I have come I’ve been working on the Agnya morning till evening. People are extremely ego oriented. They all think they are the administrator of the whole world. Delhi is full of this Agnya. Such proud and such vain people are here that they always think that they are ruling the whole world. They are the people who are the administrators and the great people belonging to politics – this, that – all ego oriented. And such people cannot be given Realization easily. First their ego has to be brought down, and they have to accept God as the Supreme Being, as a Lord, as the real King of the world. Then only it works out.

Now when some people also try to spoil this Agnya like moving the eyes, the roving eyes. Christ, imagine, specially mentioned that they say, ‛Thou shalt not commit adultery“ I say, ‛Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes.“ Just imagine. He talked of the eyes, because He is controlling the eyes at that point. But in the West it’s hard to find any man or a woman who doesn’t have an adulterous eye. Those who are the followers of Christ have such horrible eyes that you don’t know what they are doing, they’ll go mad. They can’t keep their eyes steady. All the time their eyes turning this side, that side, this side, that side. They have lusty eyes or they are looking at things or something else but it’s all joyless. There’s no joy. They are just looking at people for no fun at all. Hindi speech.

‛Thou shalt not have adulterous eyes.“ But this was all said as an order by Christ. Of course nobody obeyed it. On the contrary, like I told you the Muslims where it was said not to drink, they started having poems written by Omar Khyyam to challenge Mohammed Sahib. But among Christians they started challenging Christ, all anti-Christ activities by which innocence of people should be destroyed, by which their eyes will be destroyed, and all the purity of mind will be destroyed. And the another extreme started which was not at all preached by Christ, I don’t know how it came into the Christian religion, is a thing called nunnery and making people brahmacharinis and brahmacharis.

You cannot make anyone brahmachari or brahmacharini. It’s a state, avastha — where a person has to rise, like Yogeshwara, like Shri Krishna. Despite all that, He was a brahmachari, is a state of mind where you are not involved. Is a different thing than to just load somebody with an idea that you should become absolutely a brahmachari or a brahmacharini or you should lead a celibate life — forcing them. Christ never said so. He could not become a married man because He was here on this earth to do one great job — is to make this ascent through this Agnya Chakra. That’s why He was crucified. By doing this He was to create a space in the Agnya Chakra and that’s what He did at the command of His Father and His Mother. And He did it.

So the people who are doing all this nonsense of celibacy and … which is not. Which is not. Because from the mind there is no celibacy. Celibacy must come from within. The purity must come from within. And that has created problem in Catholicism. And also they started another big stuff like going and confessing to the priest. Now this is also another funny thing is to go to a priest. Priest is never a realized soul, I’ve seen it, because if he is a realized soul, he’ll run away from priesthood. So they would go and confess it to the priest and the poor priest would become mad and the confessor would have a left Vishuddhi feeling the guilt. That was a wrong style of absolutely God. To feel guilty is not necessary.

Then, after Christ there were people who would not accept Christ, like Jews. So they said that, ‛We will not accept Christ and we must suffer, because we must suffer for God.“ Even now, Christians believe nonsensically that we should suffer. Now, I would say Indians also believe that we have to suffer. But they also knew Mahavishnu is going to come and when He comes He will have power to suck our karmas and we don’t have to suffer. Actually that’s what happens when Christ is awakened within you, He sucks your karmas. He sucks your ego and superego. He sucks your karmas, your papas, your conditioning. And that’s how you become free. It’s a very important point which people must know. That was the great job He did was to establish Himself at the Agnya Chakra to suck these two things. And when He sucks these, then we are above our karmas, our sins and our papas. So we don’t have to worry about sins, papas and all that.

But these people, we should say those who came to this earth as missionaries who came down to India to preach Christianity, had no idea of Mahavishnu, nor they had any idea of Christ. They came with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other, and we stupid Indians also didn’t know any value of our heritage and we just said, ‛All right, let’s become Christians so that they give us good jobs.“ And that’s how all the job-oriented, all sorts of people became Christian.

But actually, they should have told that Mahavishnu is born. If they had read anything of Devi Bhagavat, and had told that Mahavishnu is born, then people would have given up this idea that you have to suffer for your karmas. So Indians are still thinking that we have to still suffer for our karmas, we should fast, we should walk and we should hang ourselves by the nearest tree all the time. This is not needed. What you have to do is to just wait for the moment when the Agnya Chakra will be opened, keep in the center, as Buddha has said, keep in the center. And then when the Kundalini rises, all this, whatever is accumulated, will be sucked in and you can get your moksha. This was a simple thing to be done. Instead of that we Indians believe we must suffer, we must go into fast. Now, in Sahaj Yoga, you are not allowed to fast in the name of God. You may fast otherwise, because if you have no money you can fast, you have to fast in any case. But not in the name of God or your karmas.

Then secondly the Jews refused to accept Christ. As a result, the Jews said that, ‛We are not going to accept Christ, we have to suffer.“ So, all right, they suffered and suffered and suffered. So they got Mr. Hitler to put them right, their sufferings. After getting Mr. Hitler, now they are becoming Hitlers. So you can imagine how wrong ideas can take you to such a limit that as a result of this thing that ‛we have to suffer“ that Hitler was born to support their wishes that they must suffer.

Nobody has to suffer any more now. You have to work out your Kundalini awakening and you have to establish yourself very well in Sahaja Yoga. All your sufferings are going to be taken away. One of the names of the Devi is Papavimochini: She removes all your papas. Sankatvimochan we call it. Shri Ganesha. He’s the one who removes all the hurdles of life and you really, when blessed, you can see that God has so many ways of blessing the people. It is miraculous. Absolutely it is a miracle. So many people who are in Sahaja Yoga now say that miracle has lost its meaning in Sahaja Yoga. Is a fact.

So, one has to understand that God exists. Not only He exists, He acts, He loves and that we are supposed to know Him. Whatever you may have done, whatever may be the mistakes, you have to become one with God. Because He is your loving Father. He’s the Father who is the Ocean of Love and only thing you have to do is to just ask for it and when the Kundalini rises, you become one with Him and He wants to bestow all His kingdom, all His Powers upon His children whom He has created.

So all these funny ideas about religion that you have to suffer, that you must to do penance, that you should become brahmacharis, all these absurd ideas should be given up. You have to be absolutely a normal, happy person. God has done so much for you. He has created so much for you, but even if you want to be miserable, what can one do? As far as Mother is concerned, if you want to punish your mother sometimes or say you want to just make her unhappy, then you say, ‛otherwise, I will not eat my food.“ So fasting is not allowed in Sahaja Yoga. But if you have to fast for food or anything, it’s all right. But otherwise there is no need to fast except for one or two days you have to fast.

And thus we understand that Agnya Chakra, which is the most important door through which everybody has to pass. Everybody has to pass it. And that has to be properly worshipped and kept clean. For that, you must keep your attention very clean. Your attention has to be clean. If your attention is soiled, then your Agnya Chakra will not be all right. Then you’ll have hallucinations, you’ll have wrong ideas and you will think of wrong things. So if you really want to find the meaning of your being, if you really want awakening of the Kundalini, then know that whatever you have known so far, about God or everything, has to be revised, has to be again seen for yourself what it is like. Unless and until you pass through this, you cannot be baptized.

The people who talk of baptism, like John the Baptist, he was really a realized soul. And when he raised the Kundalini and put the water on the head, he really gave them Realization. That is baptism. Christian means a baptized person. But not any Dick, Tom and Harry can put his hand on your head and say you are realized.

On the contrary, William Blake says, ‛The priest cursed on my head.“

Is true. For a realized soul, if you put the hand of a priest who is not a realized soul and who is not properly entitled to do it, children get into problems. We have seen many children who are realized souls who got into problems, their eyes became squinty, they become funny, their brains went off and we had to cure them. So is a very dangerous thing to make everyone put their hands on this pulsating fontanel bone area which we call as taloo. Taloo is the Brahmarandra and it is the most important part of a human being. So everybody should be very careful before they touch there. You have to be a realized soul and you have to know how to do it, means you have to be a Sahaja Yogi.

So for your children when they are born, you have to be careful. If they are realized soul, more so. Because if they are non-realized soul, then their reaction is not so violent. But if they are realized souls, they scream and shout and they can’t bear it. So, one must understand though it looks like very traditional or anything like that, one must see that those things which are harmful to human beings must be given up. The time has come for all of us to give up those things which are not good for our health, which are not good for our spiritual being. The time has come. If you do not accept this, then only thing I can say as a Mother that I’m concerned about you. But is much more than that. Is a dangerous time you are in. And Agnya Chakra, if it is spoiled at the back, that means you are definitely possessed. At the back, if the Agnya Chakra is caught, then one develops blindness with the eyes open. Now in India is very common. The reason is we have very funny ideas about the devi or the god coming into the body of human beings. How can that be? It’s again same thing, supraconscious business. A maid servant who is all the time using bad words, who has no sense of cleanliness, who has no sense of holiness, suddenly becomes agitated.

‛Ho, ho, ho,“ she goes on. And all the women, in Maharashtra is very common, they will go and fall at her feet. ‛The Devi has come. The Devi has come.“ And now they fall at her feet and then ultimately they are caught up because they get the possession by a spirit. We had one very bad case recently where a man, he came to Me and he told Me that he can’t help, he has to touch the feet of his sister-in-law because she is a devi.

I said, ‛Why?“

‛Because she gets into this agitation.“

So I told that, ‛If you think that she is a devi and if you want to touch her feet, you don’t come to Me again.“

But he became blind, absolutely blind. And when he became absolutely blind, then he came to Me. And then we had to put the Agnya Chakra all right. Now how do you do it in Sahaja Yoga? As you have the photograph, you may use it. Put a light before the photograph. Light is the way you cure your Agnya Chakra always. Light or the sun, because Christ resides in the sun. So what do you do is to put a light in front. Take another light behind and give an aarti to your Agnya Chakra at the back. It is resided by Mahaganapati and Mahabhairava. So, you just give it a aarti and Agnya Chakra will open.

But how do you open this? Very simple thing is that any thought comes to you, you should say, ‛I forgive.“ This is the greatest weapon Christ has given us. You just say, ‛I forgive, I forgive“ and you can overcome your ego. This is the mantra for this chakra in front where you just say, ‛I forgive, I forgive, I forgive“ and you’ll find your Agnya Chakra will open out, and you’ll find your ego will go away. Forgiveness is one of the biggest weapons human beings have got. But they are so stupid, if I tell them, ‛Forgive.“ Now what is there not to forgive?

They’ll say, ‛ It’s very difficult to forgive.“ I say, ‛What is so difficult? What are you doing?“ Are you doing something when you are saying, ‛I am forgiving“? Do you do something? Nothing. On the contrary when you do not forgive, then what is happening is the person whom you do not forgive is actually torturing you, while you are not torturing that person.

So this is the mantra of the Agnya Chakra in front, and at the back, as I told you, you have to move the lights. Now somebody will say one day they will do, two days they will do. That’s not how Sahaja Yoga is not to be worked out. You have to really go all out to do it. And I have seen who had eyes which were all bent like this. They could never raise their eyes are — now have open eyes, proper eyes, with this working. It’s very simple to be done.

There’s one more thing that happens to our eyes. When the Swadishthana Chakra goes out of order, it is represented here at the back which is around this back Agnya. So when you have diabetes, or anything like that, people start becoming blind. Because this Swadishthana Chakra which is around, goes on pressing it and that’s how that part which is surrounding this center oppresses and augments that center so that eyes cannot see. There’s no light. There’s darkness and people have eyes open. You have seen many diabetic people get this blindness.

So first of all, cure your diabetes through curing your Swadishthana. And also you can use ice around your Swadishthana at the back. But first of all, if you improve your Swadishthana, you will feel very much better. So the treatment of the front side is with the light. And the treatment of the back is with the water. But best is also to use the light or the water, whichever way you like. Because if it is Swadishthana, you have to use the water. But if it is just the possession, then you have to use – without diabetes, if it is a possession – then you have to just use the light. That’s how we cure our Agnya Chakra.

When Christ said, ‛I am the light. I am the path.“ Because He is Omkara; He’s the path. And He’s the door, He’s the gate. And everybody will have to pass through His gate. He never told lies. But they crucified Him. They just crucified Him.

One thing good we have, we are fortunate in this country, we don’t have any organized religion. Thank your stars for that. If you had any organized religion, you could never have taken to Sahaja Yoga. Because according to organized religion, you have to believe in one person, and as if he has no connection with anyone. He’s a lone person hanging in the air. He has nothing to do anybody else. So thank God for that — that it has not happened in this country. And that’s how we have people who are more suited for Sahaja Yoga than we have in any other country, because they are so conditioned. And it’s a very great blessing.

For example now Sai Nath, who was the last incarnation of the Guru Principle, He was a Muslim. But all His disciples are Hindus. They are not Muslims. Muslims don’t accept Him even as God. Not only that but there’s one place call Hazimulla where a saint died who was a Muslim. But he told that only the brahmins, means the realized souls, must worship me. And so they had to appoint some brahmins, which they did not understand the word ‛brahmins“. They are Hindus who are worshipping a Muslim pir. So the idea that once you become the pir, once you become a realized soul, then he has no religion. He’s beyond religion. He becomes the religion. Then there is no bounding for him because a drop has gone to the ocean. Now he’s become the ocean. So for the ocean, there is no limitation. And because he has crossed his limitation, he’s above all these things. And that’s what we believe in that if he’s a pir, if he’s a realized soul, then he’s a realized soul.

Once I went to a small village called Miapatapi. And as soon as stepped into the village, I felt tremendous vibrations and I said, ‛Who was the great saint who lived here?“ So they said there was one Muslim pir. I said, ‛Whatever it is, he was a saint.“ And when I was sitting and giving lecture – you will see the photographs – the light came on My head seven times. And the seventh time then I put My hand like this. But nobody saw it. Only I knew. And I knew that it was there. I was laughing with it. And then the people — you see when they took the photograph — they could picture it. So these realized souls are all over, and they are helping. They never enter into any body. They never trouble you. They guide you to the proper lines. They bring you, they’re angels and they help you to come to the right path, to the right conclusions. And they never try to possess you. They never try to hypnotize you or take you to wrong side of life. So when you are realized also, you must know that you have to know completely what is the reality. Go on understanding it, trying to assimilate it, not to discard it because you are attached to something, you are attached to another organization.

There is no organization in Sahaja Yoga, you know very well. There is no grouping in Sahaja Yoga. There is no membership in Sahaja Yoga. But, it's a living organization. It’s a living organization. So anything happens here, the whole body knows. Anything happens there, the whole body knows. We don’t have to have organization written for this body. In the same way, Sahaja Yoga works out. But, still I must say as we have in our body different type of sensory systems, we too have in Sahaja Yoga people who just come in, just the beginners. They are not exposed to the truths, which they cannot bear. Then, if they pass a certain line of understanding, then they are taken as they say nirvichar samadhi people who are given certain facilities to enter into certain new dimensions and ideas. But the inner circle people are the ones who are in nirvikalpa. Such people are only taken into consideration for teaching Sahaja Yoga. Anybody who tries to teach Sahaja Yoga, talk about Sahaja Yoga at the second stage just is thrown away. Because there’s a centrifugal and a centripetal – both the forces working. By one, you’re coming and by another you are thrown like a tangent. Nobody’s anxious to have a very big group or anything. If it is big, well and good. One wants to save as many as possible. But, nobody’s going to force you. Nobody’s going to have any cheap sort of a circus for it. It is the desire of the people who want to come in. It is the wish of the people. Those who have to come, you cannot force them. You cannot force a person to get their Realization.

So this is what it is today at the Agnya Chakra, I’ve told you. Agnya Chakra I’ve spoken many a times in England and in America. And I was very much, sometimes, opposed by some churches and things. But I think if they want to exist any longer, they’d better take to truth and know that what they knew so far is incomplete. They have to know the full of it. Because Christ couldn’t talk much, and whatever He said was written down by His disciples the way they understood. To understand Christ, you have to have your Realization.

May God bless you.

If you have any questions, you can ask Me again today for awhile and then I’ll make a move because today I was unusually late. But it happens. You have to get out of time. You have to get into timelessness. You have to get deconditioned about timing. Those who see time too much, they must learn to get out of time. And that is very, very important, because time is according to certain auspiciousness has to be worked out. It is not to be worked out the way we think ‛this is the time“ and I cannot be the slave of this watch. I have another watch of My own. So it all works out that way. I am not guilty for coming late, but I’m sorry because you had to wait.

Hindi Speech:

Q: What is the reason for having dreams?

Shri Mataji: The reason for dreams is that when you are sleeping your attention moves either to the supraconscious side or to the subconscious side, your attention starts moving. And then you start seeing things which are connected with your subconscious or your collective subconscious and all this thing. And you may go onto supraconscious side where you see your future and all this thing. But the reason why you get dreams actually is that the unconscious, which is within you, or you can say the Kundalini or your Atma is trying to guide you to the right path. And how does it guide you to the right path? Is through dreams. But these are misunderstood.

How do you understand these dreams because you are so confused. First you go deep into yourself and you touch the unconscious — sushupti stithi. But from there you come out. And then when you are coming out, you touch your subconscious or maybe supraconscious. So whatever anubhuti you had, or whatever experience you had, of the depths of the sushupti gets confused and you don’t know what you dreamt, and you don’t understand and you forget it. But those who are realized souls go to their sushupti and see exactly what they have to know. Like many people in Bombay when I came, they didn’t know I was coming but they were at the airport because they got the dream. So at this sushupti level, at the deep level you get the communication with God if you know how to go in and come out fully aware. But if you get confused with supraconscious or subconscious areas or if you start, your chitta is not so clear-cut, then there can be a big confusion.

Question — How can you compartmentalize? What happens when a person is a realized soul? What is the state? When he is a realized soul, what happens to a man?

Shri Mataji: See, the first thing is to say that ‛how can we compartmentalize it?“ because is the ego and super ego is on two sides. Actually, have you not noticed in our body, everything is a compartment. You see even a cell is a compartment. Everything has a boundary. It’s not some sort of a … even the blood has to pass through the channels. It has to go through these arteries. Everything is a compartment. There’s nothing like something just left there like a pulp. If it becomes the pulp, you won’t exist. So, everything is in compartment. It’s ego and super ego are like balloons and they are two balloons which can press each other, which can flow on one side. Now see the ego, though it is placed on the left hand side more, is placed like this on the left hand side more, and this one on the right hand side is the super ego. Still the ego when it increases in size it starts moving on the right hand side and the super ego, when it starts moving, it starts moving this way. So everything is in a compartment in our body. You are sadly mistaken if you think there’s anything is in a pulp, nothing. Or something like a air flowing in. Nothing like that. Everything has a channel. Everything is in a compartment.

Question — What happens to a man if he is a realized soul?

Shri Mataji: Now that is — I have been telling you what happens to a man he is a realized soul that his ego and super ego are sucked in and he gets a dent in the fontanel bone area, and the Kundalini shoots off, and he can feel the Cool Breeze coming out of his head, and he can feel it in his hand. This is only on the central nervous system this happens. But so many things happen much more – how to use this power, what it means and all that you have to learn.

Question – In spite of tremendous stress on Kundalini by Your Holiness, it is hard for me to reconcile myself with the fact that there is not the slightest reference of Kundalini in the authoritative guides on yoga – I mean Patangali’s Yoga Sutras or Gita. Why?

Shri Mataji: Yes it is surprising that people will say … He says that in Yoga Sutras of Patangali it is not written about Kundalini and also about Gita it’s not written about Kundalini. Is a fact because, you see, it was a secret science. It was kept a secret science, in My first lecture only I said, till the Sixth Century. In the Sixth Century, Adi Shankaracharya for the first time opened his mouth about it. It was a secret science with very great gurus like Janaka gave Realization to Nachiketa. And in the same way Shri Krishna did not talk about it, because you see even when Markandeya talked about it, people did not know what he was talking. They never thought him to be a sensible man.

Then later on as the people became into two compartments, one on the right, one on the left side, some started worshipping God in a devotion and in a bhakti way, the another started doing yagya havanadi things. So whatever was required for these two types of things evolved and that’s what developed. The central side of evolution was kept a secret. And even at the time of Shri Krishna it was not mentioned, not a word about this thing was mentioned because this is an internal happening, it’s antar yoga. It was not described, but Shri Krisha hinted at it, that you have to have your yoga. But how, He did not say because that was not the time. He was the one who laid the seeds. That’s why He is called as Krishna. Krishna means ‛krishi,“ the one who has done krishi. So this one was laid, the sprouting had to come. Today it was to be told.

So I am telling you about it. Everything is not told at the same time. Same in Sahaja Yoga. We don’t tell you everything at this state. About Agnya Chakra I have told you something, but not all. Gradually when you will be so aware, I will tell you. It has to be seen how far to be said at what time. And that’s what was needed at that time was told by Krishna. So Gita is the one which only tells you that this will happen. But Gyaneshwara, who was born after the sixth century, in Gyaneshwari has written about Kundalini clearly. Because, though Gita it is not written, but he said, ‛this is how it is done.“ Gynaeshawara has written. Though he has written, it’s not, it’s the Gita translated into a common language, he put also the knowledge of Kundalini. Because at that time, it was to be told. Before that, it was not to be told. Shankaracharya in the sixth century did it, then Gyaneshwara did it, then Nanaka did it, then Kabira did it. All these people did it. Not only, but even Mohammed Sahib in a way has talked about it – about the Sahaja Yoga and resurrection time. They all started talking about the resurrection time much later as they started seeing people getting it. Because to talk too much about the future is dangerous. That time Shri Krishna was placed with Arjuna when they were at the war, and that time He had to talk about the problems of hinsa, ahinsa and those ideas which we have about — wrong ideas we have. And that’s how He talked on that subject. Whatever was the subject, He talked on that and He told him how to become one with God … not how…that when you become one with God, you become a stithapragya. He gave the idea as to what will happen to you. But how it will happen He did not say. That was left to Me to explain. They can’t do everything, I have to do something, isn’t it? Because if He had said how, then they would have said, ‛Give me Realization.“ But they were not prepared for realization.

Question: I have tried to go into spiritualism in the real sense of the word. But my health is deteriorating day by day.

Shri Mataji: Some gentleman has done spiritualism in the real sense of the word, and his health is deteriorating. I have told you already what is the reason for that is – you take to spiritualism out of ignorance. There’s no spiritualism. There is no ‛ism“ with God. Spirit cannot be ‛ismized“. So, you take to Sahaja Yoga. Become your Spirit. You cannot ‛ism“ it. That’s one thing you cannot ‛ism.“ You can have ‛isms“ in everything. But Spirit is detached. It cannot be put into ‛isms.“ So those who say ‛spiritualism“ must know they have done wrong. All right? You come to Sahaja Yoga and forget it. I know I am sorry for that. You are misled but God is there and Spirit is there. In Sahaja Yoga we promise you that. Whatever mistakes you have done, it can be corrected. Hindi Speech.

I would say that whatever I said today, you must take the tape and listen to it at home. I’ve said all these things already. But your attention should have been there. Now you take a tape from these people. Listen to it. I’ve said the same thing which you are telling – that these are the problems of a big person who goes to these things and how he gets into problems. All right? So then you come to Sahaja Yoga. I know you are a seeker. And, if you are a seeker, that will be given to you. That’s your right to have it.

May God bless you.

Question: Which will be the end of all the world and of humankind?

Shri Mataji: Which will be the end of world? Again, futuristic, very futuristic. Let’s not talk about the end. Just now is the beginning. When the child is born we just don’t think about his death, do we? So better be worried about the beginning of this new world that we have started and don’t think of the death and all those things. Forget it for the time being.

Question: [written question in Hindi from a Sahaja Yogi from Kanpur]

Shri Mataji: There’s a gentleman from Kanpur he says that in Kanpur people are only interested in the physical curing. Have nothing to do with these wretched people, in this place. You just have nothing to do with them. If they are interested in material well being, Sahaja Yoga is not for such people. At all. If they don’t want to have God. Forget them. Let Kanpur be drowned in Ganges if they are like that. Useless people. Absolutely. Why should you worry about them? If they don’t want to have God. Don’t waste your energy on people who just want to be cured. It’s absolutely useless such people, they are very selfish, self-centered and troublesome. They are good for nothing. If they don’t want to have God, we have nothing to do with them. We have no relationship with them. They can go to the hospitals, take expensive medicines and die there.

I don’t like people who just come to Sahaja Yoga for only physical fitness. Is this is a hospital, or what? Reducing it to that level is not good. Anybody who thinks that he should help others, should start helping them in Kundalini and not start curing people. Please don’t do that. I’ve told a hundred times, don’t do curing. Because what will happen if you start curing you’ll start thinking that ‛I’m curing“ and you’ll get into supraconscious. So better not do it. You just put yourself into state which is proper for Sahaja Yoga. Gradually people will know you and will start coming to you.

But as far as is U.P. is concerned, God save that country, that place. I am married in that place. I know the people. Useless, absolutely good for nothing. They made Sitaji go to Banbas, who can forgive them? All dobhis, that’s all. U.P. wallas have a very great ego, you know. We had a servant who was from U.P. I am also married in U.P. I shouldn’t say but I saw that very clearly. And we had another one who was from Madras. So he was very clean Madrasi fellow, cleaning everything nicely, working very hard.

So I told this U.P. walla, I said that ‛If you don’t learn all these qualities, one day you will have no jobs in Delhi and you’ll all go out of jobs. You’d better learn all these qualities of Madrasi people – how neat they are, clean they are. They take their baths every day. You’re a lazy lump.“

So he said, ‛Ah, thika, inko to bartan majne dijiye hum to raj karange. [Hindi. Translation: all right, let them clean utensils, we will rule]

They are all going to do raj, just imagine. So one must understand that every place has its own problems. Out of them U.P. and Bihar, I don’t know how it is going to work out. I am worried. I have already tried to send somebody to Lucknow to do something. My house is in Lucknow. My relations are in Lucknow. I’ve given Realization to all My relations but they find it strange, the whole thing is so strange, you know. You don’t know what to do with that place. Imagine a nawab married three hundred and sixty-five wives. Can you imagine such a nawab living in that horrid place? Singing gazals morning till evening. All dirty things they do. And I don’t know if you can really bring them around.

There are some nice people. I wouldn’t say there aren’t. But on the whole, the whole system is based on something very nonsensical and to bring them around…. Specially Kanpur is such a materialistic place, very materialistic. Very materialistic people. The Ganges flows — Ganga, Gomati, Yamuna — all these rivers are in the north, cleansing morning till evening, working so very hard. When will the people realize?

So the Kanpur gentleman should come and settle down in Maharashtra. Rama also had to leave with Sita. [In Hindi – Shri Mataji says sorry to people in audience who are from UP – the place of Shri Mataji’s in-laws.]

Question: When I give realization to persons who have meager desire or to my own family members as there is no Sahaja Yogi?

Shri Mataji: No, no, no, no, no. Don’t try your family members. That’s not proper. Those who have no desire for Sahaja Yoga, you cannot push them in. It’s impossible. Who is your family? These are your family.

Like Christ once they asked, ‛Your brothers and sisters are calling You.“

He said, ‛Who are My brothers?“

‛Your brothers are calling You.“

He said, ‛Who are My brothers?“ He looked around.

Don’t push your family members. All right? They’ll become bhoots. Because if you push them, imagine, Agnya Chakra is closed, they’ll go to the left or to the right. They’ll become bhoots or not. Don’t push them at all.

What else?

Question: One of my cousin brothers here in Delhi where I’m staying drinks wine but does not want to come to the Sahaj Yog program in spite of my persuasion as he’s convinced that he simply can’t drink or smoke after attending the program.

Shri Mataji: You see, somebody’s brother doesn’t want to come to Sahaja Yoga program because he thinks after coming to program he cannot drink and smoke. Now, I would say that you need not tell him this secret that after Sahaja Yoga you don’t drink and smoke. You need not tell him. Once you bring him and he gets Realization, he will not do it. So let us manage it on that level. Better not tell him if you are interested. I don’t say. Did I say, ‛Don’t drink, don’t smoke“? Did I say so? I don’t say so. But it just happens. So just let it be, let them come as they are. Hindi Speech